By Manila Ryce
Published Sunday, June 15th, 2008, 6:58 pm
Filed under: Personal Posts, US Politics

11 Responses to ““I Don’t Want Nader to Steal Obama’s Votes””

1. 

   I’d rather vote for something I want and not get it than vote for something I don’t want, and get it.

   ~Eugene Debs

   erkd1
   06/15/08 at 7:51 pm
   

2. Is voting for a person like Nader even something worth bothering to do? As a hypothetical, let’s assume he were to be elected. What could Ralph do to begin any substantial change to our society? Looking at the issues section of his campaign website, there seems to be a key item missing which is absolutely necessary for any movement I can get behind: The revolutionary overthrow of the capitalist class by the proletariat led by an internationalist communist vanguard party.
   It would seem that this issue is completely off the table with anyone wishing to operate within bourgeois democracy and if we are to create a truly revolutionary socialist society(like the soviet union up until the 1950s or revolutionary china led by Mao) there must be a clear and decisive break with the bourgeois political system and an unyielding support for 3rd world revolutionary movements. Unfortunately, Ralph Nader is in no way interested these things and thus is not calling for the serious overthrow of the capitalist system.

   James
   06/15/08 at 8:56 pm
   

3. James . Dude . You sound like your reading from a Saturday night live sketch . I thought I was far left ! unless your just preaching to your choir You should maybe feed us in smaller doses ? Peace

   Relax the truth will set u free
   06/16/08 at 10:12 am
   
4. 

   So anything other than a full communist revolution is completely not worth considering? With that kind of attitude, you are guaranteeing that you will be politically irrelevant for decades to come.

   Bernie
   06/16/08 at 10:42 am
   

5. Jesus, people.

   “I’d rather vote for Obama, even tho he doesn’t really offer me what I want and there is another choice that does.”

   What kind of idiocy is this?

   The fool McCain only has as much power as you give him. But act like little scared lemmings and get what you deserve, for fuck’s sake.

   Vote Nader or look for more of the same. Nothing will ever change with Obama or McCain.

   BuelahMan
   06/16/08 at 1:04 pm
   

6. The Democratic party is an empty vessel for any individual with great articulate proposals for government (such as Ralph Nader) to fill. Why does Mr. Nader not influence the Democratic party discourse by running as a Democrat in local elections or apply to any number of significant positions in the party? This idea that you will be ‘outside’ of that ’system’ because it is not near being perfect enough for you is puritanism, and overly simplistic in the sense that it does not actually confront or negotiate with what is wrong. Not negotiating with one’s adversaries (with those we disagree with), pretending that one can have it all their way, is in step with the Bush administration.

   erik
   06/16/08 at 4:33 pm
   
7. 

   @Erik

   Kucinich is a perfect example of why this doesn’t work. The Democratic Party’s leadership and the strong influence of its corporate sponsors pretty much guarantees that alternative voices aren’t heard within the party.

   Andy
   06/16/08 at 7:04 pm
   

8. But Andy, it seems to me that Kucinich is a perfect example of why we can have “alternative” voices in the Democratic party, just by the fact that Kucinich exists as a Democrat and you have heard him speak truth. Kucinich is a great example of a good Democrat who fights the good and hard fight. You know him and I know him and many many individuals in Ohio know him for good reason. Yes, he is marginalized by individuals in the Democratic party, shame on them, and so he could do with some help…again, what if Mr. Nader were to be on that House floor with Kucinich in solidarity as opposed to running for President of the entire USofA? We good leftists need to understand that our battle is a difficult one because we do not propose to just win…Karl Rove knows how to ‘win’…we have a far more challenging prospect, namely, to win, but more importantly to win in the good way–to recognize complexity, articulate specific proposals, and empathize with our adversaries.

   erik
   06/17/08 at 12:55 am
   
9. 

   @Erik

   I do see your point. But I still tend to think that the Democratic Party is just too corrupted at this point to bring about any meaningful change. I think the old Democrat/Republican, two party bullshit needs to be done away with before any change can really come. So in my view, the best thing we can do is help support and build up third (and fourth and fifth…) parties, so that eventually we will have a real choice for democracy.

   Andy
   06/17/08 at 6:52 am
   

10. Andy, I think your right in wanting meaningful opportunities for a varied discourse in US government. This world is filled with corruption, yet that should not stop us from living in it and engaging with it. Our hands are dirty the moment we are born. This difficult life is a constant negotiation with individual’s policies we disagree with or know to be terribly unjust…a corrupt institution or Party is a collective of just such individuals (not just some objective machine or system). Lets confront those individuals in a real way, that is, from within the organization (the Democrat Party), as opposed to from a place that announces itself as being separate entirely. If you declare a separation you predictably meet the expectation for an opposing point of view, if you join and confront from within, you oppose and propose but you also must negotiate and empathize…which in my experience is how real confrontation exists and real change comes to be.

    erik
    06/17/08 at 11:15 am
    

11. The only point you’ve made is that the syntax of their sentence is wrong, but is their concern wrong?

    Maybe my “democratic ideals” are different than yours, but isn’t politics in this country already all about concessions? It’s an imperfect system, nobody is arguing against that, but Nader does receive votes from people that would otherwise probably vote Democratic. This, in turn, gives the Republican party an advantage which leaves everyone on this side of the spectrum worse off.

    This is a two-party system, which I agree is bad. But you can’t blame Democrats for worrying that their views will not be represented in Congress because of a man who received less than 5% of the popular vote last time.

    Only one person can be president. It’s the reality of the situation. Ralph Nader can either work towards getting someone with similar views as him in the White House, or he can do what he did last time.

    Also, unrelated, but how is capitalism anti-democratic?

    Jenny P
    06/19/08 at 5:21 pm
    

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